Posted by Shirlee | Posted in Discussion | Posted on 27-07-2009
Tags: free will
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February 2010
One commenter brings up “free will” as the reason God will not heal Trig Palin.
I am the mother of a 14 year old teen who happens to have Down syndrome. I would YES change her Down syndrome if I could, for her sake. [See http://beneaththewings.blogspot.com/2008/03/i-wouldnt-change-her-if-i-could.html for further explanations. Don't skip the comments.]
I also believe that theoretically G-d can “cure” Trig.
But it won’t happen. G-d wants free choice, and if he would cure trig, such a public figure, etc, HE would effectively be limiting our free choice.
I assume that you believe that God must remain hidden. He cannot assert Himself, because then people would believe based on evidence, rather than based on what other people tell them.
Yes?
Tell me, when God sent angels to visit Lot in Sodom, was that remaining hidden, or did He invalidate Lot’s free will?
When God walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, was He remaining hidden, or did He invalidate their free will?
When Jesus performed very public miracles, was He remaining hidden, or did He invalidate the free will of the 5,000 people fed in the miracle of the loaves and fishes, or of witnesses to His other miracles?
When God parted the Red Sea during the Exodus, did that invalidate the free will of the Jews?
This has been posted to the discussion forum, as well.
G-d CAn assert Himself, but He chooses not to do so. If every person who lit up a cigarette would drop dead an hour later, who many people would try smoking? If anyone who stole hands withered up, would we have coruption today?
There was a period that G-d performed open miracles more readily, perhaps to GIVE us a choice by showing that He does exist. But HE did that enough times that he already has enough credentials for people to see.
So all told, HOW many people really saw those miracles? The maximum was at the parting of the reed sea.
But today we have to look for the everyday miracles in our lives.
Today, if G-d would make such a public miracle, one tghat could be measured, shown, and varified, He would effectively be limiting our free will.
Exactly how would a demonstration of God’s power limit human free will?
This is an oft-used, well-worn and totally lame excuse Christians offer as to why their God doesn’t perform public miracles anymore, assuming he performed them in the past (this has never been verified).
God doesn’t perform miracles either because he doesn’t exist, or he’s not what you think he is. It’s that simple. God will not do anything for or against Trig Palin because God either doesn’t exist or isn’t what you think he is.
The only way I can be proven wrong is for God to perform a public miracle in such a way that the observed phenomenon can only be the work of the God you worship.
Hump
And wouldn’t that be a glorious moment, Humphrey?
If we keep agreeing like this, you’re going to end up a Christian, my friend!
As for God’s past miracles, they are all documented in the Bible. Sometimes, in several books of the Bible!
Sure, they’re not on videotape, because such technology didn’t exist at the time. However, there are no videotapes of Washington crossing the Delaware, or of Hannibal crossing the Alps. You believe those happened, so why not Moses and the Jews crossing the Red Sea while God held back the waters for them?
Hi Shirlee:
I know we can read about miracles in the Bible, but we can’t verify they actually occured.
Their “documentation” is questionable because they are hearsay, which isn’t reliable (and one reason why hearsay is not admissable as evidence in US courts). We can’t identify with authority any of the Bible’s authors, though we have historically attributed the books to certain authors. We don’t know when the Bible’s books were written, though most biblical scholars place the books’ authorship in the second half of the first century.
These books simply are not reliable as documentary evidence for supposed divine miracles.
As for Hannibal crossing the Alps, we have some ancient historical testimony from at least one person, Polybius of Megalopolis, who claims to have spoken to men who participated in Hannibal’s adventure.
Another ancient historian, Titus Livius, offered a precise chronology of Hannibal’s trek through the Alps, a precision that no Bible offers for any story told therein.
While the testimony of these historians cannot be verified as accurate, the subject matter they address is certainly more believeable than the idea that divine miracles occur.
There is no doubt that Hannibal lived, and there is no doubt he crossed the Alps and won three key military victories in what is now northern Italy.
He had to get to Northern Italy somehow, and we know he didn’t airdrop in.
We know with certainty that George Washington crossed the Delaware because we have undeniable first-hand accounts from men who participated in the crossing and subsequent battle at Trenton. We have reliable records of the event.
These two examples you offered don’t support your case. The acts these men performed were well within human capabilities and capacity to conceive. They are believeable because they don’t rely on unverifiable claims of divine intervention.
The claim that the Jews crossed the Red Sea because God held the waters aprt for them is quite obviously flawed. Do you have archeological evidence that this event occured as described in the Bible? I’ve never seen any. What can you offer?
As for Trig’s “glorious moment”: Ain’t gonna happen.
And would you mind addressing the question I asked about how a divine miracle would limit human free will? I assume you have a ready answer.
Hump
Humphrey, you say that Hannibal’s crossing of the Alps, etc. are confirmed by two witnesses, one of whom CLAIMS to have spoken with men who were on the journey. This makes the stories reliable.
Then you say that miracles related in the Bible (such as those related in the New Testament, reported on by three or more authors) are “hearsay”.
It seems to me that you’re choosing what to believe and what to disbelieve. Two authors are more reliable than three?
You ask for geologic evidence that water moved for a few hours? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that request is? A narrow swath of water moving briefly would have no lasting impact!
You also state that
Wrong. That speaks only to the New Testament, written in the years following the death and resurrection of Jesus (which would be, by definition, the middle of the first century AD). It’d be rather hard to write them before the events took place.
However, the Old Testament had been in use for centuries before Jesus came.
As for your question about how a divine miracle would limit free will . . . If you read my original post, you’d know that I DISAGREE with that assertion.
As for God’s past miracles, they are all documented in the Bible. Sometimes, in several books of the Bible! *Not a credible source*
Sure, they’re not on videotape, because such technology didn’t exist at the time. However, there are no videotapes of Washington crossing the Delaware, or of Hannibal crossing the Alps. You believe those happened, so why not Moses and the Jews crossing the Red Sea while God held back the waters for them?
*The reason the bible is not a credible source is because it has implausible “stories” in it. The reason it is easier to believe Hannibal crossed the alps with elephants in his army is because its possible. I could go up to the Alps, with Elephants, and prove to you that I could cross it. Nothing ever in all of time has been able to prove that the red sea was split, or any of the other imaginary stories from the bible.
So, God (side-note: G-d? I assume you’re trying not to ‘take his name in vain’, as the saying goes. But do you really think the spirit of that commandment is to never type or say the word ‘God’? But I digress…) has the opportunity to prove to us he exists, but chooses not to. Doesn’t this say something about the nature of God? It seems oxymoronic to value faith over empiricism as a virtue. Faith, by definition, lacks proof or even evidence. Given that the Bible was written by fallible men, then rewritten, examined, censored, and had entire books chosen, by men, to be excluded from the text, it can hardly count as proof. So God must somehow prefer his believers to be uninformed, condemning the ones who look at the world, find evidence of his existence lacking, and choose to deny supernatural explanations for perfectly mundane events. Surely it’s his own fault that people like me are atheists, since it’s up to God to prove his existence, not me to prove otherwise.
I think the hand-stealers get various pestilences from handling all those hands, so that could be defined as ‘withered up’ and your point becomes kind of invalid.
Hello Shirley:
I didn’t say Hannibal’s crossing the Alps was confirmed by two witnesses.
This is what I said: “While the testimony of these historians cannot be verified as accurate, the subject matter they address is certainly more believeable than the idea that divine miracles occur.”
Please note the phrase “cannot be verified as accurate.” This is the same situation for the biblical testimonies of divine miracles.
Polybius’ testimony comes from direct contact with people involved in Hannibal’s campaign. We don’t have that kind of testimony of Jesus’ supposed miracles.
Titus Livius’ testimony comes about two centuries after the fact and relies much on Polybius’ work. Historians recognize the problems that brings, and they apply reasonable skepticism.
What makes historical testimonies of Hannibal’s campaign more reliable than stories of divine miracles is the fact that Hannibal’s military campaign into Italy falls within the realm of things we know humans can do. It’s no stretch to believe that a military commander led an army through the Alps, even though it happened more than 2,000 years ago.
We have more than one witness to the result of Hannibal’s actions, including his failure to conquer Rome.
We don’t have to accept on faith that Hannibal existed because we know he existed. We don’t need faith to accept that Hannibal enjoyed military success in northern Italy because we know he did. The historical witnesses we have are varied, and those witnesses don’t invoke divine intervention to help explain what Hannibal did.
This doesn’t mean that we can absolutely trust everything we read about Hannibal. But it does mean that we can have more confidence in what we read because we’re not told that Hannibal relied on divine miracles for his success.
As for your comment “It seems to me that you’re choosing what to believe and what to disbelieve. Two authors are more reliable than three?”
It’s not a question of choosing what to believe. I find I’m not compelled to believe biblical stories of miracles because miracles require the existence of an entity capable of performing them, and we have no evidence that any such entity exists.
I don’t know if Hannibal actually lived, but the claims that he did live and was a brilliant military commander are believeable because those claims fall within the realm of things human do. I don’t have to exercise faith in something unseen and unproven to accept that Hannibal lived and conquered.
And the “three” (or more) authors you mention? Who are they? When did they write their books? Where did they get their information? Why are their stories inconsistent with one another? Are you sure their books come from their hands and not a conglomeration of more than three hands over deveral decades of copying and interpreting?
The truth is that we have several reasonable hypothothses that address NT gospel authorship, but none of those hypothoses include firm information on who wrote the tales of Jesus’ life.
Unlike the ancient historians we know about and whose work we can read, we don’t know who wrote the books of the New Testament. The apparent dates of the earliest manuscripts we have put the writing of these books at 20-30 years after Jesus’ death, at the earliest. And as far as we can tell, none of the authors wrote from first-hand experience of Jesus’ supposed miracles. They got their information from something, but it wasn’t from actually seeing Jesus perform miracles. Ever heard of the “Q” hypothosis?
The earliest Christians had no Christian scripture, and they appear to have kept the oral traditions of the ancient Jews and didn’t write down what Jesus did. Because we have no first-hand evidence of Jesus’ supposed miracles, and because the books we do have came decades after Jesus’ death, and because the books we have don’t tell us consistent stories, and because we don’t know who the authors were or what their sources of information were, we can’t rely on them to tell us an accurate story of Jesus.
The only way a person can accept these stories to be true is to do so on faith that these stories are reliable. That’s not a reasonable thing to do. The stories don’t hold up to historical scrutiny and cannot be defended on that basis.
Hump
Free Will has nothing to do with whether or not God heals anyone. I’m in the medical field and we heal people all the time without infringing on free will, so how could an all-powerful God be unable to do so?
I want to see Down’s Syndrome cured as much as anyone, but praying for it to happen is a waste of time and energy that could have been better spent by making a donation to a research charity. The cure for Down’s Syndrome (like every other cure that exists) will come from dedicated scientists working very hard to save lives, not from prayer.
So, Dave, you’re an atheist?
Sounds to me like Dave here just wants people to give him money to buy a flashy car. I’ve seen what these supposed ‘charities’ do with the money they collect. typically, less that 10% ever gets to those that need the money, the rest is spent on ‘admistative costs’. What a sham! God does not charge a fee to to things for us.
All of you people with such a negative attitude regarding prayer and miracles disgust me. If you are against it, fine. But must you constantly berate those that beleive in God? I do not go on your athiest web sites spouting off, why do you have to come here?
JH
Read any comment thread on any Athiest website, and you will no doubt see an endless stream of nonsense about the evils and ignorance that Athiests represent. Dave makes one comment about actually doing something useful to find a cure for Down’s Syndrome, and you want to remove him from the discussion just because you assume he is an Athiest.
It’s shallow mindedness like this drives millions of people, who could otherwise be extremely helpful in our efforts to cure these terrible conditions, to misplace their intellect, desire, and good will into pointless endeavors such as prayer.
Sad
If God fails to cure Trig, would you consider making a donation then?
Sorry, WHEN God fails to cure Trig…
If I were God and I saw what was going on here I probably would not cure Trig. This is a very selfish act, for many reasons. Why is there such hatred brewing up here that the Christians feel as if they need to prove the existence of a God they so strongly believe in, this seems like a selfish act in and of it self. I can just see a whole bunch of 5 year olds saying I told you so. It is bad enough christians believe every other non-believer in the world is a substantial person compared to them, stop being such elitists my Great Grandmother would yell at all you.
Add on top of that asking for the curing of a single down syndrome patient. You decided on Trig because he is a media figure, this is the silliest thing I have ever seen. I have to agree that donating money to research is a much better cause, a miracle for one person is nice, but finding a cure to a crippling illness is the real miracle.
All the Atheist who are here are equally as bad, I am just as sick of reading about Christians pushing there thoughts on people as I am of Atheists talking about how they all help the world so much and don’t need religion to be good. Well stop spending all your time trying to tear down religion, and start spending some of that time fixing the community you live in. Religion does good and bad, atheism does good and bad. Thats because they are both practiced by people and people aren’t perfect!
opps, I meant sub standard person not substantial
oh you mean like the preachers at megachurches?
Millions of faithful praying and then nothing happens. I love it!
How many people will come to doubt their imaginary friend as a result?
I’m buying a bumper sticker right now!
Thank you, Shirley, for doing your part to discredit your own religion.
I’m impressed, Shirlee – you think big! I too am eager to see Jesus and/or his Dad pull this one off. There are two possibilities in this case, and both are equally dazzling – real old-timey Red Sea partin’ stuff. One, he could zap all of Trig’s hundreds of billions of cells and remove the extra 21st chromosome from every single one of them; or two – he could regress Trig back to his original constituent sperm and ovum, figure out which one carried the extra chromosome, and remove it. That would sure be cool to see, wouldn’t it? Shouldn’t be any problem at all for a being who made a guy out of dirt and a woman out of a rib.
Down’s Syndrome child are a gift from God. If you had contact with any of them you will see that they are perfect, innocent creatures, created by God for a reason.
It’s very arrogant of you to want to change someone, and assume that it’s God plan.
Praying for Trig is excellent, as praying for all the children in the world, Down’s Syndrome or not; but what you’re doing is disgusting and sad.
Down’s kids are broken. If there were a way to fix them, and you refused the treatment, it would be child abuse.
Sicko.
People with Down syndrome are not broken. They are genetically different. Different does mean ill or broken.
There are many DSyndrome children and adults of whom I’ve made acquaintance and the last thing they are is perfect. They are people. Human people. They are not innocent (sometimes the girls are so boy crazy that their parents have to rein them in so they don’t get themselves pregnant. This is true. And it is not true that DS girls are sterile. )
Yes, to see the world through rose-colored glasses and so simply, I’m sure it makes living much easier for those who are afraid. But life is a messy mish-mash of chaos. There is no God to help you through or to make some kind of miracle happen to strengthen your faith. We need to look to ourselves for grown-up answers to these difficult questions and to science for answers to chromosomal issues. Better to donate time and money to Special Olympics to support our citizens with DS and save the “prayer” for ourselves who have enough trouble in our own lives to figure out.
And, Mrs. Palin probably should have been more careful. If you’re over-40 be aware that you have a pretty good chance to have a child with Down’s. This isn’t big news.
Mrs. Palin should have been more careful? What the heck does that mean?
Praying for a Trig recovery won’t work because god is made up.
Pray instead that one day Trig finds out who his real mother is (this may even be Sarah though it seems highly unlikely). This is far more realistic.
I can’t tell if this site is a joke or not. Either way it’s freakin’ hilarious! I congratulate you!
Hey Shirley, if she’s healed I’ll give 1 millions dollar !
But if the prayer fails I’ll be laughing at you !
Who gave her Down’s syndrome in the first place?
And, in addition, does she even want to be healed?
No hatred here, just a question:
According to the scripture you quote on the FAQ page, God will heal Trig because you and many other faithful will pray for it. If, after the day of prayer, Trig is not healed, then one of these things must be true:
1. God does not exist
2. You picked the wrong God
3. The Bible is wrong
Are you prepared to face this reality? Will you take a hard look at yourself and your beliefs when Trig is not cured of Down Syndrome?
I don’t think it’s occurred to many of the posters on this site that it won’t work. And when it doesn’t the excuse will be that those who prayed didn’t have enough faith.
I would be, by the way, over -joyed if this did work. I’d be the first to convert and give away all of my possessions. But I won’t give them away just yet.
Another possibility is that “God” wanted Trig to have Down Syndrome. And these people are all second-guessing God’s will, so he will ignore them.
However, I think it is far more likely that (1) God does not exist.
According to the verses posted in the FAQ, God’s will isn’t relevant. There’s not much room for interpretation: it’s just a matter of sufficient faith, and asking for it.
That means, that if God wants Trig to have Down Syndrome, and ignores the prayers of the faithful because they’re against his will, then the Bible is wrong.
Perhaps God’s plan is to make it appear that He has no plan for His own mysterious yet transparent reasons, or that His plans are adaptable in the face of prayer but only when you really mean it, or that the Devil is making us think that God’s plan isn’t real.
If the above is true, then if Trig is not cured after the day of prayer by the faithful, that would change the possible reasons you cite to:
1. God has a plan that we cannot comprehend b/c it is so enormous and wonderful and there really is a purpose for extra chromosones (like perhaps they form the ’steps’ to the ‘ladder’ that will take the Faithful to Heaven during the Rapture);
2. God is ‘the boss’ of everything and us mere mortals should just follow His orders, AND/OR:
3. A crucial ‘Doubting Thomas’ single-handedly screwed it all up for Trig by not meaning it when he prayed on the Day of Prayer for Trig (don’t let that be you!)
Something to chew on!
“And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.”
- Luke 4:5
All three of your options boil down to “The Bible is wrong”. Jesus did not qualify his promises in terms of “if it is God’s will”. Therefore, if God does not grant the requests of the faithful because they go against his plan, then the Bible, at least where it makes these claims, is wrong. I don’t see how you can deny this.
What’s going to happen if he tells you NO?
I ask this seriously because of a miracle I experienced many years ago. That gives me reason to know their is divine intervention.
Too often God is blamed for our own weakness. He’s never whispered in my ear. But, he has shown me paths and given me choices.
And ultimately I don’t know why you want to tamper with his (God’s) works. Only he knows why Tri-g has that nasty little extra chromosone.
Before this pray date I think you all need to look deep in your hearts. I suspect your questioning your own beliefs. Are you the ones that need affirmation by interfering in God’s work?
If god exists have him strike me down with lightning.
god is a worthless imaginary figure created to controll masses of people with fear. the fact that the idea of religion is still around to this day is proof of how powerful and important the idea of an all-powerful being is to the mind of something that doesnt quite understand the world around it. Its an easy out. Its very easy to believe that everything is the way it is because of some set reason, or because some being wanted it to be that way.
however without proof, all you have is a life wasted believing in nothing. if im wrong strike me down with a lightning bolt, do something. Athiests need evidence, there is zero evidence of god, jesus or any of these people in the bible doing the miraculous things that they are given so much credit for.
If the healing of Trig glorifies God and helps promote His will, He could choose to heal at that time. It isn’t in our power, but in our submission to His will and leading, that He chooses to bless us and honor requests like these. God will be glorified. This is our purpose and my prayer.
This is a cop-out! The verses quoted in the FAQ are very clear on the subject.
The whole notion of “healing” is an arbitrary human construct.
Is autism a condition which needs to be “healed”?
What about Asperger’s syndrome?
Synaesthesia?
An angry temperament?
A fondness for jazz music?
This is an argument that can’t be won….if one prays for something with faith God will answer in the affirmative….so if god doesn’t answer then the faith is in question not the ability of god to answer prayers…so never do the question of god’s existence ever enter in…so the question is moot….the argument is moot….the whole thing assumes the existence of a being that can’t be proved to exist…its farce and fancy…children believe in god, santa, and the tooth fairy….then they grow up…and realize that the world doesn’t have mythical people in it – meaning god, santa, or the tooth fairy.
Who is to say that God has not already cured Trig of his Down’s Syndrome? Perhaps those who look upon Baby Trig and see a handicapped child are really the ones who lack faith … something to chew on!
As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water: And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.
- Leviticus 14:6-7
What an incredibly sad display of people who cannot accept disabled people for who they are. And you call yourselves Christians?
Free will is a myth which you believe because you have no choice but to believe.
Trig Palin DESERVES to live crippled and disabled. Trig is clearly Satan’s SPAWN and as such is not worthy of SYMPATHY.
I for one support retards.
I should know, I ran with one.
Isn’t this kind of like being happy that some celebrity survived a plane crash that killed everyone else? What’s so special about Trig Palin? And you know what else really irritates me about all these supposed “medical” miracles? The way people are so eager to thank some imaginary sky-Santa instead of the hard-working doctors and nurses who have devoted their lives to saving other lives.
Down’s Syndrome and all other genetic aberrations are a result of random mutations and errors in DNA replication. They are not the work of mythical characters like Satan or the will of some god. They are nothing more than the tragic result of DNA replication gone wrong.