Posted by blessing | Posted in Announcements | Posted on 26-01-2010
Tags: conversion, pz myers
After winning our poll, Dr. Myers wrote a blog post on the subject. He appears willing to be prayed for:
There was another poll out there that I studiously ignored, because I was on it: Which miracle do you think Americans would most support? One of the possible answers was “PZ Myers publicly converts from atheism to follow the One True God.”
I think it was a very poor choice, because one of the ways that could happen, which would require no miracle at all, is brain damage. Alas, I have won. Now I have to be a little concerned that devout Christians will be after me with a baseball bat.
So here’s an important caveat: traumatic brain injury or organic deterioration do not count. You’re going to have to convert me with reason, logic, and evidence in order for my conversion to count as a miracle. And trust me, since Christians don’t have any of those, it really would be a miracle.
Oh, wait. Is the One True God the Flying Spaghetti Monster, though? There’s a chance there.
Dr. Myers, first let me express my appreciation for not “Pharyngulating” the poll. It was the honest responses of people with an interest in this site and in the promotion of God. They really want to see you get Saved!
Neither Shirlee nor I have any desire to see you bludgeoned into submission with a baseball bat or other blunt instrument. (Well, I don’t, anyway!) I assume our poll respondents share our desire only to see the glory of God manifested in you, and to hear your future lectures on God’s love and wisdom and the beauty of His Creation.
I suggest we pick a date some months in the future, to allow people to learn of your impending conversion. Then, prayer teams can join in petitioning Jesus on that date for your salvation. I can’t wait to see your blog post on that glorious day!
Since God grants us free will — you do believe people have free will, don’t you? I know that some scientists think we are controlled by experiences and chemicals and such — I can’t expect He would force you to believe anything, nor would He want someone to damage your brain or drug you so you’d believe. No, He would provide a vision or other evidence which convinces you of His existence, so you come to Him of your own free will.
So, Dr. Myers, what’s a good day for you to find Jesus?
We’ve been waiting, patiently, for the evidence of your god. As soon as you get some, let us know. Until then, your imaginary friend is just that.
Prayer. Lets see
Yes
No
Wait for Yes or no
OR
Maybe
Yep prayer is never wrong. Makes perfect sense.
On free will:
Is god omniscient? Yes or no.
No, there is not one god, nor many gods, that are omniscient because THEY DON’T EXIST. As Sarnia Skeptic noted (just like everyone else in the world), there is not a single piece of evidence in any universe to suggest that a god or gods exist. I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but only as far as sarcasm (and knowing blatant fiction when I see it) goes.
Now stop ruining Australia Day.
Of course, by “free will” you mean having to conform to an ever-increasing list of sins.
What would it take to admit failure on this venture?
If PZ has not converted to whomever you define as the one true god by the end of 2010, will you publically accept that prayers and miracles are a load of cobblers?
(I thought not.)
That’s not possible, Michael!
Dr. Myers and I will have to agree to a date, and he will convert on that agreed date. Jesus will keep His promise, and Dr. Myers’ eyes will be opened.
The more people we can educate about Dr. Myers’ impending conversion, the more meaningful it will be and the more people will see that God does what He says He will do.
Don’t you want people to see the reality of God? Why would you want to stop them? Disbelief leads to Hell, Michael! Do you want people to go to Hell, or do you want them to see Dr. Myers be saved and, becoming believers, join him in Heaven?
I assume Dr. Myers will make a blog post about his conversion when it happens, and I will happily repost it here, unedited, for everyone to see the proof that God is real and interested in human affairs.
That, Michael, is a promise.
Shirlee, this is exactly the problem with your site and this ridiculous worldview. What happens when he doesn’t convert? Since you like to call people by their names, mine is Dan. You ask why we atheists don’t want people to see the reality of God; It’s because we don’t believe God is real. There IS no reality of God, no supernatural creator entity, and certainly no Hell! If God were interested in human affairs, why do people die every day of disease, cancer, earthquake, hurricanes and all so-called ‘Acts of God’? Does God not care for the children of Haiti? If I say God is non-existent, and die tomorrow, will he punish me for all eternity just because he did not convince me, a mortal human, fallible and imperfect, of his existence? If your God really so petty that he sentences people to an eternity of pain for not loving him enough? Whatever happened to being all forgiving?
You see, Shirlee, the problem we have with this ‘experiment’ of yours is that it is not anything of the sort; you admit no opportunity of failure. If he converts, then God exists, and if he doesn’t, then GOD MUST NOT EXIST. Until you acknowledge that fact, you make a mockery of the scientific process, and will garner no respect for your well-meaning efforts.
Dan, I’ve said this several times over:
It is not possible for Dr. Myers not to convert, since Jesus has promised to fulfill the prayers of the faithful. THE BIBLE SAYS SO, and the Bible is God’s Word. He WILL convert on the appointed date. I have promised to repost, unedited, whatever relevant blog entry Dr. Myers makes on that day.
What more do you want?
What I want is for you to admit that praying for something does not always mean that thing is going to happen!
People have prayed for their loved ones to come back from the dead, for the end of cancer and war and death, and yet IT STILL HAPPENS.
Explain that.
And the bible is your supposed “god’s” word because the bible says so?
Shirlee, I assume you would decline any offer to wager on this, and I imagine that you likely think gambling is a sin.
However, since your perspective admits no possibility of losing, is it really fair to call it gambling? After all, you seem confident that there is absolutely no risk on your side.
I suspect you will reject that argument as well, so instead I will have to wager with myself: if PZ converts, I’ll give religion a second chance. But remember the alternative, if PZ does not convert, then I will dedicate the rest of my life to exposing prayer as completely ineffectual to as many people as I can. (Full disclosure, I almost do that already.)
If I’ve miscalculated, and you are open to a wager, we could commit to donating some small sum (maybe 50-100$) to a charity of the winner’s choosing.
And where exactly does this “god” you seem to put so much blind faith in say that PZ will be converted? I’ve read the bible from cover to cover 7 times in 4 different translations and don’t remember a sentence about that. I find it very humorous to talk to people who believe so much but have no basis for this belief, or knowledge about what is really in the bible.
Addressed here: http://www.pray4healing.com/2009/07/22/jesus-made-a-promise/
Maybe you should pay attention on reading #8.
So – let me understand how this works: you pray (talk to yourself/no-one); if something appears to happen, you credit your invisible sky fairy. If nothing happens (as it won’t) you let your sky fairy off the hook. ie It wasn’t what she wanted to do.
You are stunningly undemanding of your deity! Why not ask her to actually do something for you? Something clear and unequivocal? I did for years…and nothing happened.
It is always clear that the folks who actually want people to go to hell, are the sad idiots who invented the place.
So Shirlee: you seem pretty sure that PZ is going to convert on a specific date. What will you do if on that date, PZ doesn’t convert? (Here’s a promise: if PZ converts, so will I). I think, on that date (what date is it by the way?) you will invent a new way to decieve yourself.
I would suggest April 1 for his conversion date. Let all people of all religions join together on that day and pray for PZ’s conversion.
Since I believe I’m just as godless as PZ, I offer myself to be converted at a date of your convenience. You just settle on a date, and don’t tell me until it’s over. Then I’ll tell you if it happened. Or, if not, I trust you’ll do the right thing and announce to your four regular readers that this whole god thing is a fraud, or at least an honest mistake. No, I’m sticking with fraud.
“Two hands working produce more good than 1000 hands praying”- Unknown
Rob, John Lenin is right. There are no Dogs. But yes, the percieved image of Dog by believers is that Dog IS omniscient (and omnipotent). However, being omniscient means you know everything, including the future. So, there are no surprises for Dog. If there are no surprises for Dog it means that believers do not have free will because they cannot surprise Dog. If they could, he wouldn’t be omniscient, Q.E.D., he wouldn’t be Dog. So in reality
(reletively speaking), they’re simply living (also performing; exercising; executing; etc.) a predetermined destiny that Dog knows all about. What free will?! But it’s tough for believers to wrap Jebus atrophied minds around this paradox of and in their belief.
Prof. Dawkins peripherally addresses this in his book “The God Delusion”, chapt. 3 pp 77-8: “Incidentally, it has not escaped the notice of logicians that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually incompatible. If Dog is omniscient, he must already know how he is going to intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means he can’t change his mind about his intervention [as he detects no future surprises which would require change. rr] which means he is not omnipotent.” [And if he does change his mind anyway, despite His imperitive to act, He is then PROVEN to be arrogant and capricious entity. rr] “Karen Owens has captured this wittly little paradox in equally engaging verse:
Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
Change His future mind?”
PZ convert? Brings to mind a sever cold snap in the netherworld.
“So, Dr. Myers, what’s a good day for you to find Jesus?”
Why are you hiding him? If so, that’s called kidnapping and you should be arrested. Shame on you for kidnapping Jesus. Isn’t there a taco He should be appearing in?
How about this, why not surprise him? Pick a day, and have your team pray for him as hard as you can. He’ll never know what hit him, assuming it’s not a baseball bat.
hmmmm. Me thinks what I think this site is… Im beginning to question this.
[...] A friend emailed me about what could be an interesting experiment. I’ve added the link PRAY4PZ at the top, where you can read about this interesting [...]
[...] glad I left trackbacks enabled: Does God listen to us? | Efficacy of Prayer said on [...]
I was just reading this article by Billy Graham about the Antichrist, and that he might be here on Earth already:
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100203/is-the-antichrist-here-on-earth-today/index.html
Now, I know you’re thinking I’m going to suggest that Obama is the Antichrist. While he has some sort of messiah complex, he doesn’t try to turn people away from Jesus.
PZ Myers, on the other hand, is working overtime to steer people away from Jesus. His followers treat him like a god, hanging on his every word! Heck, now he’s trying to get his followers to convince Obama to create a day of worship for Darwin!!
So, do you really think that praying for the Antichrist will help? After all, he already KNOWS God is real, he’s just trying to turn people FROM God!
To be honest, your theory is rubbish. I’ve an avowed atheist, and I’d never heard of this PZ Meyer’s until this site introduced me to him (ironic, no?) In any case, he has nowhere near the following of someone like, say Richard Dawkins. Lose the conspiracy theory, the entire Book of Revelations is a critique of the Roman Empire’s persecution of Christians, not some end-of-the-world prediction.
Irishman, aside from being an “avowed atheist” (um, to whom are we supposed to swear?) you sound much like a Christian Reconstructionist.
They believe in “postmillenialism”, a take on eschatology which states that Revelation already happened, and that Jesus will return after people establish his kingdom FOR him. Get rid of the undesirables, establish Biblical law, etc.
Check out http://www.americanvision.org for more from their perspective.
They don’t believe in the “Rapture”, which they take to be a load of nonsense cooked up by the “dispensationalists”, also known as “pre-tribulation premillenialists”. These people believe that they will get a “get out of life free card” by going to Heaven without dying. My link above explains in detail, if you’re interested.
HI SHIRL! Any luck yet? I’m waiting for PZ to say he loves Jesus . . .
I suppose ‘committed’ would be a better term ^^ I guess I do sound something like that, but it’s my belief that the Bible is a mix of fictional myths, of the kind which were circulating around the Middle East for centuries (Look up the story of the Egyptian god Horus; Son of the god Osiris, born to a virgin mother, baptized in a river (by a man who was later beheaded), tempted while alone in the desert, healed the sick and the blind, cast out demons, walked on water, raised a man named “Asar” from the dead, which translates to Lazarus in the Hebrew, had 12 disciples, was executed, and was resurrected 3 days later) and political writing critical of the Roman Empire. I’m certainly not a Christian Reconstructionist, although for the most part I value Jesus’s moral teachings. I find the more despicable parts of the Bible to come from the Old Testament; Jesus never said a thing about gays ^^
I do rather like the ‘Get out of Life free Card’ saying though
Maybe nobody recorded any sayings of Jesus about homosexuals, but Paul had plenty to say. See Romans 1.
Well, you’re right about one thing, Shirlee, which is that nobody recorded Jesus saying anything about homosexuality. The problem lies in the fact that the New Testament was written entirely by people who never knew Jesus; it was almost 2 generations after his death. In fact, the apostle Paul didn’t believe Jesus was actually divine; read some of his writings more closely, as I believe he says it pretty explicitly. In any case, denying human beings the basic right to live their life the way they want to, without harming others, seems like a basic tenant of Christianity, and hatred against gays goes against that tenant.
One thing that has always confused me is the idea that the bible is “god’s book”. It was in fact men who wrote it down, right? Why is it that when someone 2000 (or more) years ago wrote something down, claiming it was divine providence, (or just god telling them to or whatever), it is more believable than when I say it? If I told you that god told me to kill my son, but then stopped me or sent an angel to stop me, moments before I did so, would people believe me? Why do we trust the human authors of such an old book, but not the guy on the street corner with the sandwich board that reads “the end is near”? (Or do you believe him as well?) And this isn’t even considering the other scenario, that the books were written as allegory, which does not require their authors to harbor any sort of mental disorder.
Could you show me why you would think something like “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” is allegory or metaphor?
Sorry I’ve not been around the last few days.
Thats okay Shirlee! Good to hear from you!
Thank you again for carrying on this discussion with me, I fear that things I write might challenge you in ways that your religion claims are dangerous. I really don’t intend to. Feel free to tell me if you think I am out of line.
I don’t mean to imply that the bible is necessarily allegory or metaphor, and I did intend to suggest other explanations, like that the authors could have been delusional, but there are still other explanations as well.
Superstition might fit the “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” the best—it seems reasonable that humans who did not know as much about the universe (e.g., electricity & magnetism, gravity, the solar system, germ theory, cell theory, microwaves, computers, space shuttle, etc.) may have mistaken coincidence for causation.
Another good reason that does not require mental disorder, superstition, nor allegory, could simply be authoritative control of a population; kings ruled europe for centuries by the claim of divine right, doesn’t it seem that even more primitive cultures would have faced the same issue? And some of the older religious institutions, such as the catholic church, are unbelievably powerful (rich), so whether power over the people was an underlying motivator or not, we know they have succeeded in gaining vast wealth.
On witches: Witchcraft is turning to yourself and demons to obtain power or other gain, rejecting God. That is why it is an abomination. It has nothing to do with causation, and it doesn’t even require a witch to be successful in her spell-casting. It’s the turning from God that is the problem.
It’s true that the Catholic cult, by lying to people about what the Bible said, has accumulated vast resources which could have been put to use saving souls. Instead, the Pope wears Prada and sells “indulgences”. It’s disgusting.
You want me to call Jesus a liar. Sorry, not gonna happen. He promised.
He promised a lot of things that haven’t happened and won’t happen. Let’s say you pray for him to appear on CNN tonight. Will that happen? What if I pray for that to happen? Will he not listen to me because I don’t believe in him?
Cody, you are correct that I do not admit any possibility of losing. If I thought it were possible that Jesus would turn His back on His promises, what would that say of my faith?
Gambling money would be, yes, gambling. Even though I already know the outcome. However, let’s see what I can come up with here . . .
You’re suggesting a donation to charity. I like that; no personal gain.
Let me ponder this for a bit, and I’ll put up a new post with a proposal.
I’m confused. First, nobody said anything about “hating gays”. Any Christian would far prefer that they give up their Satanic ways and come to Jesus. So, I’m going to say this:
Christianity’s basic tenet is that God makes the rules and we obey. All of the rules, not just the ones we like.
God put His rules in the Book. We don’t get to pick and choose.
Calling their way of life Satanic sounds pretty hateful to me.
Riddle me this then, Shirlee; Do you eat shellfish? Does your husband shave? Do your children (if you have any, I wouldn’t know) disobey you occasionally? DO you own slaves? For that matter, what are you doing on the internet of the eve of the Sabbath? And wearing clothes of mixed fibers? And I imagine you don’t blow a shofar horn every month.
If you don’t support murdering people for eating shellfish, then why do you think homosexuality is Satanic? It’s not something people choose to be (why would they, with so much bigotry against them) and there are recorded cases of homosexuality among all the major mammals and many birds. So what is your basis for denying their right to be who they are?
Dan, I don’t deny anyone’s right to be whomever they like.
God makes the rules. It is our job to obey, not to make up new rules that we like better. It is also our job to warn people that they are setting themselves up for an eternity of torture for a fleeting human pleasure. Is it a Christian thing to do to enable their damnation? I think not. It’s the Christian thing to do to take any action necessary to save their souls!
There are rules of morality and rules of ritual cleanliness, Dan. They’re two very different things. I’ll have to find you a resource that explains them in detail, rather than playing “Biblical Whack-A-Mole” with you.
Oh, what a convenient excuse for picking and choosing. Tell me this then; what makes you think that not eating shellfish is a ‘ritual’ law, but not having sex with men is a ‘moral one’. Is there a label? Or is it just something everyone decided so they could justify their uncomfortable feelings about gay people.
Alright, if it’s God’s rule, why did God make that rule? Seems random to me that God would decide that 10% of the population had to change their entire being to even be ELIGIBLE to go to heaven. Is God just homophobic? Or does he think that something that is fine in all the other mammals is just gross in humans?
First of all, where do you get the idea that animals have souls and go to Heaven? There is no support for this in Scripture anywhere.
Here’s a reference for you on the distinction between ceremonial and moral law. http://www.colossians-2-16.com/
A snippet for you:
I’m a bit confused by your animal/soul bit, as it makes no sense int he context of the argument. I presented it as a counter-argument to the ‘unnatural’ excuse.
Meanwhile, the Colossians scripture could just as well be a ‘blotting out’ if you will of ALL the Old Testament laws. I see nothing there, again, that separates homosexuality from shaving in terms of moral vs. ritual. The value judgments made by you Christians, deciding to condemn 10% of the population to eternal suffering, are not made in the Bible.
Dan, you said
What animals, who don’t have souls and will neither be saved nor condemned, do isn’t relevant. I never said whether something was “natural” or not. God decides what humans should and should not do, not “nature”.
I guess you didn’t read the article I referred you to, Dan, since it pretty clearly says the difference between moral and ceremonial laws. And Christians don’t “condemn” anybody. God does. We just tell you what the Bible says. You can choose to ignore it; the path to Hell is one of your own personal choosing.
Do you suggest that Paul also should be ignored (Romans 1)?
No, I did not read that entire article, it was quite a bit TL;DR for me. But you only know what God apparently says through this book, which was written long after the death of anyone who was in it. I’m sorry, but I can’t allow you to quote the Bible and nothing else to further your arguments.
I’m going to assume you don’t believe in evolution, so the whole “God decides rather than nature” makes sense to you. But here’s the kicker. Why does God condemn homosexuality? If he’s the one condemning it, what is His reasoning then?
So, you “can’t allow” me to quote God’s Word to tell you what God’s Word says? >facepalm<
It is not for us to ask why God condemns homosexuality. He does. Who are you to question God?
Quote away, just know that technically, it’s not God’s Word. It’s man’s word. So to expect me to take it at face value and not question it is simple foolish.
Who am I to question God? Well, who are you to question Brahma, the Tao, Buddha, Allah, Vishnu, Thor, Horus and Zeus? You seems to be fine with questioning the existence and condemnations of all those God’s, even though their existence is exactly as plausible as your God’s.
If you want to ask for a Christian perspective, it can only be found in the Bible. Anyone who tells you different isn’t a Christian.
I’m just asking you to explain the rationality of the Christian perspective. But clearly the only thing you can come up with is “It says so in this book”, which I have trouble finding compelling as a reason to deny basic human rights to people, such as the right to love and live with the person of their choice.